progol

Having had a fabulous first trip to Japan, we’re now planning a second visit next fall for 18 nights at the beginning of November. This will follow 2 1/2 weeks in Taiwan, so I’m trying to be circumspect and not make the trip too hectic. We are arriving in Kix from Taiwan so will at least have adjusted to the time difference by then. And I now have far too many places I want to see! We will end our trip in Kyoto, returning to Hotel Mume, where we both felt a strong connection to the people and the place.

I now have 2 itineraries (with variations)and clearly can’t do both and would love your thoughts. Much as I’d like to say we’ll come back a third time, I really don’t see it happening, as we have other places we want to see, too, and our travel energy is dwindling.

Itinerary #1
Osaka -3/4
Kinosaki-2 (I’ve been wanting to go here for a while but it is the outlier)
Himeji-1 (transition place and I’m eager to see the castle)
Onomichi -3 (want to do the temple walk, day 2 explore by ferry or bike)
Hiroshima -3 (1 day for the city, another for a day trip, but not necessarily Miyajima)
Kyoto -5 (Uji, Nara?)

Itinerary #1a (all the above plus Naoshima, which has also been on my radar for a while)
Osaka -3/4
Kinosaki-2 (I’ve been wanting to go here for a while but it is the outlier)
Himeji-1 (transition place and I’m eager to see the castle)
Naoshima - 2/3
Onomichi -2/3
Hiroshima -2
Kyoto -5 (Uji, Nara?)

I’m concerned about being spread too thin in the variation above and, if I sacrifice a visit to Kinosaki (which I’m not sure I want to), we would go to Naoshima. however, in many ways, itinerary #1a hits the places I’m especially interested in.,

The more I read about Takamatsu, the more it sounds appealing, as well as Matsuyama, as long as I can find a good onsen hotel or ryokan. But I’m concerned that both Takamatsu and Matsuyama are bigger cities and the appeal of Kinosaki and Onomichi are that they are smaller. We loved our experiences in the smaller places on our recent trip and I want to experience that again.

I try to keep the travel between places no more than 3 hours with limited changes.

Itinerary #2
Osaka -3/4
Naoshima -2
Takamatsu -3
Matsuyama -2/3
Hiroshima-2
Kyoto -5
(This itinerary could be reversed, traveling to Hiroshima from Osaka and returning to Kyoto from Naoshima)

Thoughts, recommendations and suggestions are welcome!

(As I look at this, my heart seems more drawn to #1 or #1a but I’m willing to hear other opinions )

mrwunrfl

I like #1 best
Onomichi is only about 65 minutes from Hiroshima if you take the shinkansen.

Matsuyama is a city, population of 500k, but it felt much smaller. Wonderful castle. Dogo Onsen Honkan (main building) is famous/historic and quite attractive inside and out. The actual bath is not large. I don't mean this to be negative at all but the point of going there is not to enjoy a fabulous bath area. It is modestly sized and, really some of the baths in an onsen town are similar (like Kinosaki Onsen). You go to Dogo Onsen to soak in the water but also to soak in the ambiance of the honkan. Your not just going for a soak, you are going for a soak in Dogo Onsen. That was the first onsen I ever visited and figured if it waa good enough for emporers then it would be a good place for me to start.

By fabulous bath am thinking of the baths at Daiichi Takimotokan in Noboribetsu Onsen or a large rotenburo somewhere with fab views. I think the bath(s) you experienced in Okukda were probably what am describing as modestly sized, small and cozy.

I stayed at Hotel Patio Dogo, across the street from Dogo Onsen. It might have had a bath. I did have a room that was twice as big and half the cost (a bit of exaggeration) than what I had in Tokyo. It would have been reasonable to suit up at the hotel and clip-clop over to the onsen building. Am sure there are onsen hotels and ryokan in the area that could be your destination but, to me, the onsen interest was in that famous building.

Kinosaki Onsen is an onsen town. That is very much a good choice if looking for onsen hotels/ryokan. Or maybe better to describe it as such a place that also has a circuit of baths to visit that are a short stroll apart.

Take the onsen out of Matsuyama and you still have a nice city to visit. Take the onsen out of Kinosaki Onsen and you have farmland.

progol

Thanks so much, mrwunrfl! I knew you’d chime in! I’m inclined toward #1 as well though there is definitely a part of me that would like to see Naoshima. Have you been? It sounds intriguing (and we are fans of modern art and architecture) yet a bit difficult to navigate.

<<Take the onsen out of Matsuyama and you still have a nice city to visit. Take the onsen out of Kinosaki Onsen and you have farmland.>>

I love this description, so I must admit I’m taken by the idea of a walking around the town in a yukata and trying out different onsens. I loved the onsens on our recent trip and I’m especially drawn to Kinosaki. It sounds fun and “touristy” in a very traditional sort of way.

Matsuyama does sound very nice and I could see enjoying it as well.

mrwunrfl

Naoshima has never interested me.

progol

I understand. I thought that might be the case.

Mara

My question is why Osaka for 3/4 nights??
Himeji isn't that far from KIX - so you could go there for the first night unless your flight is awfully late getting in....then you're not that far from Kurashiki and Naoshima and Onomichi.

After that you would have a longish trip to Kinosaki Onsen and the places further east.....

progol

I figured we’d do 3 nights, or 2 full days in Osaka; if we spent a 4th night it would be for a day trip to Nara. We haven’t been there before so we thought we’d at least get a feeling for it. Our stay at Mume will be for the end of our trip so I thought it would be easiest to start in Osaka. But I’ll try to work it a bit and see if we can move it around a little.

I try to limit our travel between places to around 3 hours or less and limit the number of changes. That’s why Kinosaki to Himeji works well - it’s a direct train under 3 hours. A longer train ride is okay if we’re not making multiple changes. Fatigue really is an issue so I want to minimize the travel schlepping where I can.

Mara

Yes, I understand what you mean about long train rides and changing although it is usually fairly easy unless you have huge luggage...
You can use Himeji as a base for Kurashiki, Naoshima and Onomichi if you don't want to move again....
You can easily go from Kyoto to Nara - two different train lines - I do it often....
I've been to Osaka many times as well but with limited time, for me, it would be not worth a couple of days...with all the other places you want to fit in...just my opinion obviously.....

progol

Thanks, Mara,
You make good points about using one of the places for a base. For those places you mention, I think I’d rather stay the night in those places but I’ll discuss the idea of skipping Osaka as a way to have more time elsewhere.

Is Osaka so much less of a place to visit? I know a lot of people don’t care for it but there are others who really do seem to say it’s a more lowkeyed city than Tokyo and is enjoyable. I’ll need to do a rethink on this.

Mara

Oh, I just looked at your proposed itinerary #2 - missed it earlier....duh....sorry....I might have to change my earlier comments as I wasn't thinking straight....
I like both itineraries and they are all basically in the same area of Japan...I really like Shikoku - I spent about ten days there a while back -
I like Osaka but as I said it is another big city and your time might be better spent in other places....as far as Naoshima unless you're going to stay at Benesse House you can do that as a day trip as someone mentioned on another thread here, I think. And you can get the ferry from Takamatsu if you're going to be staying there.
In a way it's too bad you really want to go to Kinosaki Onsen as it's off your main route...but it's a nice onsen town and I'm not into onsen like mrwunrfl....but I enjoyed a night there....

progol

Thanks, Mara. So many options! I agree, Kinosaki is definitely an outlier. I think I need to just sit with this a while, do some videos of the different places and get a feel for each. We really loved the smaller cities on our trip so I would love to keep Onomichi in the plan. The truth is, they’ll all be good…

Thank you for the feedback..I do have time to plan, at least.

valgalchi

I do kind of agree with Mara bout your time in Osaka. We liked it but it is a big city and if that's not really your thing I'd porbably either think about skipping it or doing it as a day trip from Kyoto. You can do Matsuyama as a day trip form Hiroshima on the ferry. That's what we did the first time we visited. It's a nice city, great castle and just has a generally good vibe.
We loved Onomichi but 3 days there does like a lot. You cold always day trip to Kurashiki from there if interested.
Are there any onsen towns that appeal to you perhaps closer to the other places on your itinerary? Onsen doesn't appeal to me except as a place to buy traditional kokeshi in Tohoku so I can't suggest anything there.

progol

valgachi, many thanks for responding. I’m definitely getting the idea that we’ll limit our time in Osaka. I’d like to get a taste of it but not spend a lot of time.

I was really taken by the onsen experience. There are places closer to Osaka but they don’t sound as appealing (Arima) and Matsuyama has facilities, but I think Kinosaki is unique. It still calls to me but I will definitely play around with the options. I thought Onomichi would be good for 3 nights with a day for the town and a day on the ferry cruising the sea (the ferry to Setoda looks wonderful if we’re there when it’s running). It seems that some people prefer Kurashiki and others find it too much of a touristy town. Also, I guess if we go to Naoshima, we’d have some exploration of the Seto islands, but I’m intrigued by the rides from Onomichi.

This is all to say there are too many choices!

valgalchi

Kurashiki is definitely more touristy but when we were there it was mostly Japanese tourists. It is very pretty but doesn't take a lot of time to see (we ended up spending part of the day in Okayama at the last minute). I'd just keep Kurashiki as an option if you find you've had your fill of Onimichi while there.

And yes, so many places to see. We're thinking about heading back in the fall for trip #6!

progol

Valgachi, that’s wonderful! I wish we didn’t need business class seats, it would make travel so much easier (alas, aging aches and pains really do seem to require comfort, especially for long haul flights).

Current playing around - gives me a little of both itineraries:
Osaka-2
Kino-saki-2
Himeji-1
Onomichi-2
Hiroshima- 3 (day trip TBD)
Takamatsu-3 (day trip to Naoshima)
Kyoto-5

The train from Kinosaki to Himeji would arrive late in the afternoon, so we wouldn’t really see the castle until the next day. We could arrive early possibly in Onomichi, so we’ll have enough time to explore the city. With an extra day in Hiroshima, we can do a day trip, possibly to Matsuyama. And then we’d have time in Takamatsu to see the garden as well as visit a Naoshima. And then end in Kyoto.

mrwunrfl

About Kinosaki Onsen being an outlier: it is geographically outside of the Tokaido/Sanyo shinkansen routes that connectt big cities.

You can google Osaka to Hirohima and see multiple results and get the idea that the trip takes around 1hr 30m
You can google Kinosaki Onsen to Hirohima and see multiple results and get the idea that the trip takes around 4 to 5 hours.

A small city/town just doesn't have the frequency/volume that the big cities do, so it is necesaary to look at the timetable to see what your options are.

Time required: 1:41
07:13 Kinosakionsen
08:54 Himeji

Time required: 1:49
14:14 Kinosakionsen
16:03 Himeji


Time required: 3:05
14:14 Kinosakion

16:03
16:22 Himeji
17:19 Hiroshima

So, now I know that I can get from KO to Hiroshima with only one transfer in 3 hours 5 min including a transfer time of 19 minutes. Might be able to get it under 3 hours with a shorter transfer time.

That was using West Japan Railway Company - Timetables, Route Maps, and Station Maps (westjr.co.jp)

Understanding that Naoshima to Onomichi involves non-JR travel and to lazy to work out the total travel time with connections, I just googled it and got an itinerary with travel time of 2h 58m. It ia bit more complicated than the 1 train transfer in the above trip,

7:55 AM Naoshima Port
Ferry宇野～直島［本村・旅客］宇野港［旅客船］行


20 min
(non-stop)
8:15 AM
Uno
WalkWalk


About 5 min
8:28 AM
Uno Station
8:56 AM
TrainUno LineLocalOkayama


28 min
(9 stops)
· Stop ID: JR-L15
9:07 AM
Hayashima Station
TrainSeto-Ohashi LineRapid Marine Liner 14RapidOkayama


12 min
(2 stops)
· Platform 1 · Stop ID: JR-L06
9:19 AM
Okayama Station
WalkWalk


About 2 min
9:47 AM
Okayama Station
ShinkansenTokaido-Sanyo ShinkansenNozomi 5NozomiHakata


16 min
(non-stop)
· Platform 22
10:03 AM
Fukuyama Station
WalkWalk


About 2 min
10:17 AM
Fukuyama Station
TrainSan-yo LineLocalMihara


19 min
(4 stops)
· Platform 3 · Stop ID: JR-W14
10:36 AM
Onomichi Station
WalkWalk


About 2 min
10:45 AM
尾道駅前
Bus尾道駅～フジグラン～東尾道駅東尾道駅行


3 min
(3 stops)
10:48 AM
Nagaeguchi
WalkWalk


About 5 min, 400 m
10:53 AM Onomichi

(ok, travel time includes 17 min travel time Onomichi Station to Onomichi which could be reduced by using a taxi)

Mara

I have some comments but no time now...later....or as they say in Japanese - まってね　－mattene

Mara

I like your most recent itinerary basically....my changes would be to consolidate your nights in either Onomichi or Hiroshima or maybe one last night in Hiroshima and then take the ferry to Matsuyama....I have taken a few Japanese ferries - always nice trips imo. Then you can do a night in Matsuyama and go to Takamatsu and Naoshima....

Will you have some type of rail pass? What about your luggage? Do you travel pretty light or maybe use takuhaibin? Sorry if you have already discussed these issues.

And the ferry has a 30% discount for foreigners - it expires next month but maybe they do it every year...

progol

Mara, thank you so much for your suggestions and I’ll consider them, though truthfully, I really do like the idea of staying in each of the places. It’s a nice feeling staying in a smaller town, so I’d more likely stay in Onomichi but I understand Hiroshima is a lovely city - and I do want to have their okonomiyaki! It probably makes more sense to stay in Hiroshima but I’d miss staying in the smaller city - or at least, that’s how I feel now. As it’s said, early days.

We did the luggage forwarding a couple of times on this past trip and I could see it being very helpful on this trip.

Good to know about the ferry discount. When it comes time, I’ll definitely check it out.

progol

mrwunrfl,
Thank you for the train schedule options. I’ve found that the Limited Express Hamakaze train from KO to Himeji is the one I’d want to take. I know we could get to Hiroshima by taking the same train and then changing for the train to Hiroshima. Though I know if we want to actually see Himeji castle, we’ll probably still need to stay over, since we are not the type to get off a train to check out a sight and then continue on to the next destination, much as it would make sense!